Silicon Knights Lays Off 26

Claw Shrimp
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And this is why I didn't have a problem with people being brutal toward Too Human. This is why Denis Dyack's constant, even irrational defense of the game annoyed me. Maybe it was brilliant, maybe it was ahead of its time, whatever... it's now cost people their jobs.

If Silicon Knights goes under we will probably never see a true sequel to Eternal Darkness. If that happens, well... I hope it was worth it, Mr. Dyack.

Maybe I'm just being melodramatic and ignoring that this kind of thing isn't all that uncommon after a development cycle. Still... it ain't good!

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

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Seems fairly normal.. probably testers and QA types and probably a few extra programmers that were brought on to finish the project..

Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter

85's face the truth you're too dumb.

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TheGameguru wrote:
Seems fairly normal.. probably testers and QA types and probably a few extra programmers that were brought on to finish the project..

But... but my gamer rage!...

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

Spore

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Switchbreak's picture
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So, Dyack rants and raves about how socially irresponsible it is to hire contract workers, and then cops to hiring full-time workers for a single project and only keeping them around until that project is finished? Yes, that's much better than those evil companies that outsource their work.

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Switchbreak wrote:
So, Dyack rants and raves about how socially irresponsible it is to hire contract workers, and then cops to hiring full-time workers for a single project and only keeping them around until that project is finished? Yes, that's much better than those evil companies that outsource their work.

Contract workers? or overseas contract workers? There might be a difference there.. I dont recall the quote so I have no idea.

Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter

85's face the truth you're too dumb.

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TheGameguru wrote:
Contract workers? or overseas contract workers? There might be a difference there.. I dont recall the quote so I have no idea.

I think he's made it pretty clear that he's against all forms of outsourcing, overseas or otherwise. Here's one of his quotes in a gamasutra interview:

Denis Dyack wrote:
I think from the perspective of a business model, it would be great if you didn't have to carry staff and look after them, and if you could just bring people on when you needed them and let them go when you didn't. I think for the talent itself, though, that's a commoditization. You become a utility, and your value becomes diminished significantly. At Silicon Knights, we don't hire part-time people. We don't outsource. It's all to protect the talent, which we are.

And another one:

Denis Dyack wrote:
Maybe unions less so, but contract work, if you hire a writer contract, you're essentially saying anyone can write your story. What we're saying is, no, they have to be an integrated part of the entire studio to do it well.

And it's fine to have moral convictions like that, but he's been really vocal about this and has publicly criticized other companies over it, so I do think it's kind of annoying that they're now blowing off these layoffs as just a natural result of the project the people were hired for being finished.

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Certis's picture

Yes, 26 people just lost their jobs, let's twist a common occurrence in game development into some kind of attack against ... I'm not even sure what.

It's funny that the complaints of Dyack's bombast and attitude are being delivered in such a bombastic, attention-grabbing way. Not sure how that's any better.

Certis beat me to it. - Elysium

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Certis wrote:
Yes, 26 people just lost their jobs, let's twist a common occurrence in game development into some kind of attack against ... I'm not even sure what.

It's funny that the complaints of Dyack's bombast and attitude are being delivered in such a bombastic, attention-grabbing way. Not sure how that's any better.

I'm not trying to be bombastic or overly angry at all, but I do think it's inconsistent to criticize other companies for getting work on a project-by-project basis and then turn around and do the same thing yourself. If they had at least acknowledged that it went against the philosophies they've espoused in the past it wouldn't rankle me, but the fact that they are treating it like a normal thing made me feel like I just had to point out how disingenuous that is.

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Elysium's picture

So, on topic and with a little less high horse superiority - a damn shame, and while this is the circle of life in the gaming industry, particularly when a heavy hitting project doesn't quite live up to hopes, it's certainly a tough time to be out of a job.

"I think Elysium has the right of it" - Certis

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Switchbreak wrote:
Certis wrote:
Yes, 26 people just lost their jobs, let's twist a common occurrence in game development into some kind of attack against ... I'm not even sure what.

It's funny that the complaints of Dyack's bombast and attitude are being delivered in such a bombastic, attention-grabbing way. Not sure how that's any better.

I'm not trying to be bombastic or overly angry at all, but I do think it's inconsistent to criticize other companies for getting work on a project-by-project basis and then turn around and do the same thing yourself. If they had at least acknowledged that it went against the philosophies they've espoused in the past it wouldn't rankle me, but the fact that they are treating it like a normal thing made me feel like I just had to point out how disingenuous that is.


Having to let people go because your game didn't perform is different than hiring a contractor and dropping them the moment the project is out the door. Too Human has been out for months, it's irresponsible for a company to keep everyone on if they can't afford to pay them all. If you have to make the unfortunate decision of letting people go or watching your company spiral into a debt it can't climb out of, you do what you have to do. Ideals don't pay the bills and this doesn't even go against what he spoke of a few months ago.

As for the bombast, I was referring to Lobster, not your post.

Certis beat me to it. - Elysium

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Well, they're in Canada so they'll have unemployment insurance which, (according to what I heard of crunch mode) should ensure them a nice ''vacation'' and decent salary.

Hopefully they'll really be hired soon enough (like, when their unemployment checks end.

Hehe

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UI is mostly based on how long you worked prior to being layed off. So, if they were just brought on the finish TH, they're likely getting nothing or next to nothing.

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Wouldn't this have more to do with the economy and stuff?

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interstate78 wrote:
Well, they're in Canada so they'll have unemployment insurance which, (according to what I heard of crunch mode) should ensure them a nice ''vacation'' and decent salary.

Hopefully they'll really be hired soon enough (like, when their unemployment checks end.

Hehe

EI only pays you a small portion of what you were making and like Morro said, it all depends on how long you were employed. I've been on EI before and trust me when I say that the time off usually consists of deciding which bills you are going to let lapse this month.

As others have said, things like this aren't uncommon and the assumption also seems to be that these layoffs were unplanned or that the people had no idea they were coming, neither of which has been confirmed. What has been confirmed however is that these layoffs are temporary, meaning they likely were low level positions that were only relevant at certain times in the development process. They current have at least two projects in development and both are in the very early stages so some late stage positions just wouldn't be needed right now. Silicon Knights has almost 200 people on staff so this isn't a huge reduction and isn't a sign of any impending collapse of the company. The only reason this got any press at all (even though it happens in the industry every day) is because it is Silicon Knights and it gives press outlets who were offended by Dyack (which is to say, most of them) a little schadenfreude.

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Mex wrote:
Wouldn't this have more to do with the economy and stuff?

The Canadian economy is still doing OK and we're actually still in growth, though barely so and we're probably heading for a recession very soon. This is just project timing I think. A lot of big developers try to have several projects going on at different stages of development so they can rotate their staff through them. Since SK's projects are all very early, this wasn't possible for them.

"We're taught from a young age how to dodge rock hard objects moving at incredible rates of speed while simultaneously beating folks half to death with sticks. We do this for fun." -kung fu grip
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Claw Shrimp
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Certis wrote:
As for the bombast, I was referring to Lobster, not your post.

If we were Kotaku, this would've gotten us 10,000 hits. I'm just underappreciated here.

More seriously, yeah, it might be irresponsible and silly of me to make a big deal over this, but I'm not a journalist or a business owner. As other people with better minds and more level heads than mine have pointed out, there is at least something to this. Dyack seems to have said he wasn't going to hire/fire people for development cycles and his reversal on that could indicate some sort of trouble. As I said, people losing their jobs is never a good thing.

So excuse me for friending it up a bit.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

Spore

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Certis wrote:
Switchbreak wrote:
Certis wrote:
Yes, 26 people just lost their jobs, let's twist a common occurrence in game development into some kind of attack against ... I'm not even sure what.

It's funny that the complaints of Dyack's bombast and attitude are being delivered in such a bombastic, attention-grabbing way. Not sure how that's any better.

I'm not trying to be bombastic or overly angry at all, but I do think it's inconsistent to criticize other companies for getting work on a project-by-project basis and then turn around and do the same thing yourself. If they had at least acknowledged that it went against the philosophies they've espoused in the past it wouldn't rankle me, but the fact that they are treating it like a normal thing made me feel like I just had to point out how disingenuous that is.


Having to let people go because your game didn't perform is different than hiring a contractor and dropping them the moment the project is out the door. Too Human has been out for months, it's irresponsible for a company to keep everyone on if they can't afford to pay them all. If you have to make the unfortunate decision of letting people go or watching your company spiral into a debt it can't climb out of, you do what you have to do. Ideals don't pay the bills and this doesn't even go against what he spoke of a few months ago.

As for the bombast, I was referring to Lobster, not your post.

Pretty much what Certis said.. saying that this perhaps one time unfortunate event is actually a systematic pattern of behavior is a stretch.

Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter

85's face the truth you're too dumb.

http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs

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LobsterMobster wrote:
Certis wrote:
As for the bombast, I was referring to Lobster, not your post.

If we were Kotaku, this would've gotten us 10,000 hits. I'm just underappreciated here.

INSANE FOUNDER OF GAMERS WITH JOBS BLASTS FAITHFUL READER/FAN IN ONLINE FLAMEFEST, MASS EXODUS FROM FORUM ENSUES! more after the jump

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Mex wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:
Certis wrote:
As for the bombast, I was referring to Lobster, not your post.

If we were Kotaku, this would've gotten us 10,000 hits. I'm just underappreciated here.

INSANE FOUNDER OF GAMERS WITH JOBS BLASTS FAITHFUL READER/FAN IN ONLINE FLAMEFEST, MASS EXODUS FROM FORUM ENSUES! more after the jump

ROFL! I can haz banhammer?!

Claw Shrimp
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Mex wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:
Certis wrote:
As for the bombast, I was referring to Lobster, not your post.

If we were Kotaku, this would've gotten us 10,000 hits. I'm just underappreciated here.

INSANE FOUNDER OF GAMERS WITH JOBS BLASTS FAITHFUL READER/FAN IN ONLINE FLAMEFEST, MASS EXODUS FROM FORUM ENSUES! more after the jump

Oh come now, there's only one person to blame for a flamefest and that's the guy who's been spreading the gas around, the one who made this thread.

...

Uh oh.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

Spore

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Mex wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:
Certis wrote:
As for the bombast, I was referring to Lobster, not your post.

If we were Kotaku, this would've gotten us 10,000 hits. I'm just underappreciated here.

INSANE FOUNDER OF GAMERS WITH JOBS BLASTS FAITHFUL READER/FAN IN ONLINE FLAMEFEST, MASS EXODUS FROM FORUM ENSUES! more after the jump


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Just illustrates the wrongness of his points really. Blasting outsourcing, especially in this business is archaic anyway. Game development consists of various stages, requiring different people with different skillsets quite often. If company has to keep them all on payroll, it means it has to have multiple projects in various stages to use them efficiently. Big companies like EA can leverage that but small to middle sized cant.
Nowdays even outsourcing companies are outsourcing (I`ve been subcontractor myself quite often) to stay efficient. Plus, there are companies that offer services for just about any stage of the dev process. Since the Bloodlines thread has resurfaced, they`re the first that come to mind. That gorgeous concept art Vampire: The Masquarade had? Not done in-house. Not to use those resources is just plain dumb.
Look at Hollywood, they`ve used that model for ages and are faring well. There are special effects houses, there are writers, there are actors, whatever - studios dont keep them on perma-payroll, they just use their services when need arises. Studio is more like a magnet with deep pockets that attracts the right kinds of people to the right kind of project and once the work is done, they part.
And whats with the hate for foreign outsourcing? It`s talent-driven industry, you dont choose someone because he`s charging five bucks less per hour. You choose him because you think this particular talent is better fit for project than the one next door. Besides, the crazy outsourcing fashion wave has passed anyway, there`s too much trouble with indiscriminate outsourcing - language/culture barriers, scheduling problems etc. Chinese sweatshops with thousands of artists turned out to be ineffective and stuff often had to be redone in-house just because product turned to be too different culturally. Same with code - you want it to be commented and want some documentation with it which means language matters.

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Aren't jobs in general becoming somewhat of a commodity at this point? I'm seeing a lot more losses from different companies than I've normally seen lately, so I don't think this has as much to do with the steaming corpse of Too Human as it does the economy in general.

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Swat wrote:
Aren't jobs in general becoming somewhat of a commodity at this point? I'm seeing a lot more losses from different companies than I've normally seen lately, so I don't think this has as much to do with the steaming corpse of Too Human as it does the economy in general.

Historically, entertainment does very well during hard times. The movie industry took off during the Great Depression. People need that escapism more than ever.

NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.

Spore

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Most wrote:
Just illustrates the wrongness of his points really. Blasting outsourcing, especially in this business is archaic anyway. Game development consists of various stages, requiring different people with different skillsets quite often. If company has to keep them all on payroll, it means it has to have multiple projects in various stages to use them efficiently. Big companies like EA can leverage that but small to middle sized cant.
Nowdays even outsourcing companies are outsourcing (I`ve been subcontractor myself quite often) to stay efficient. Plus, there are companies that offer services for just about any stage of the dev process. Since the Bloodlines thread has resurfaced, they`re the first that come to mind. That gorgeous concept art Vampire: The Masquarade had? Not done in-house. Not to use those resources is just plain dumb.
Look at Hollywood, they`ve used that model for ages and are faring well. There are special effects houses, there are writers, there are actors, whatever - studios dont keep them on perma-payroll, they just use their services when need arises. Studio is more like a magnet with deep pockets that attracts the right kinds of people to the right kind of project and once the work is done, they part.
And whats with the hate for foreign outsourcing? It`s talent-driven industry, you dont choose someone because he`s charging five bucks less per hour. You choose him because you think this particular talent is better fit for project than the one next door. Besides, the crazy outsourcing fashion wave has passed anyway, there`s too much trouble with indiscriminate outsourcing - language/culture barriers, scheduling problems etc. Chinese sweatshops with thousands of artists turned out to be ineffective and stuff often had to be redone in-house just because product turned to be too different culturally. Same with code - you want it to be commented and want some documentation with it which means language matters.

Couldn't have said it better myself. But I would've added more fart jokes if I were you.

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Bombastic Lobster...

What an awesome band name!

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BadKen wrote:
Bombastic Lobster...

What an awesome band name!

Ugh, now all I can think of is some weird lobster remix of that shaggy song.

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I liked Too Human.... I actually like a gigantic majority of Silicon Knights games. (Legacy of Kain, Eternal Darkness, Too Human)

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Commence your hatred, gentlemen.

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They've already said they have at least two other projects being worked on, so I wouldn't be overly worried about the future of Silicon Knights. Yes, a shame for those 26.

Regarding outsourcing, I don't see very many scenarios in which you could do without outsourcing. There is nothing wrong with outsourcing. In my experience, it isn't done to shave costs, it's because the talent just isn't available locally and/or setting up a large enough workforce with efficient management is extremely difficult. Just buying the man hours from someone who's dedicated to solving that problem is sensible. I'd say it also lets the developers focus on what they do best, which is being creative and solving design and technology problems, not human management problems.

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Wait, Dyack claimed that Too Human was done entirely in-house? That can't be true, I know people who did external contract work on Too Human.