Wow. That sound you just heard was the sound of the rug being pulled out of McCain's foreign policy.
Fortunately the GOP and their friends in the media excel at rewriting history. By this time tomorrow, it will be evidence of liberal bias to even mention the fact that the administration and McCain have lacerated Obama for raising the notion of timetables.
"It makes no sense to tell the enemy when you plan to start withdrawing. All the terrorists would have to do is mark their calendars and gather their strength -- and begin plotting how to overthrow the government and take control of the country of Iraq. I believe setting a deadline for withdrawal would demoralize the Iraqi people, would encourage killers across the broader Middle East, and send a signal that America will not keep its commitments. Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure -- and that would be irresponsible."
So he did something right? It's been a while since that's happened no? Either way credit given where credit is due.
His hand was somewhat forced. With the expiration of the UN Mandate, he sort of had to take what the Iraqi government gave him or accept the criticism that Iraq was not sovereign and that our continued presence was the very definition of an illegal occupation.
Do you give credit to the crook for getting caught?
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas... Houston that is...
Friday, August 22nd, 2008 - 3:55pm
Ohh well on to Georgia! It has been fun guys, I will miss all the camel spider vs.. videos.
Xfire: Pharacon
Tempest says: "A team hat doe snot communicate and talk to each other about what the next move will be is going to lose."
Mex is my hero = "f*ck it, I'll do it. WE'LL DO IT LIVE."
As the kids say, "pics or it didn't happen." I'll believe it when I see it in 2011. That's a long time for us to change our minds.
And not to be TOO cynical, but I wonder if Bush might have agreed to it because the timing might make the next president look bad if things don't go smoothly.
I read an article the other day that was fairly stupid and asinine, but did bring up one decent point: when we pull out of Iraq, those troops won't be going home. They'll be redeployed to Afghanistan (or by 2011, maybe Iran).
I'm more worried about the fact that he's setting a timetable that occurs when he isn't in office, or isn't suppose to be...
I don't think it's realistic to expect withdrawal before he leaves office, even from a purely logistical point of view. Unless we're talking boarding evac helicopters from rooftops Vietnam-style.
I don't think it's realistic to expect withdrawal before he leaves office, even from a purely logistical point of view. Unless we're talking boarding evac helicopters from rooftops Vietnam-style.
Not what I was going for, I meant he'll still be president then.
How 'bout pointing out the fact that this may have (and was the plan) all along. To create a viable and self-sustaining (although lazy and corrupt as hell) government in Iraq.
And this means Iraq is beginning to stand on its own, I view it as good.
Now if we could just get the lazy bastards to start paying the bills for their own country, it would all be good!
Unless you're running out of mana overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game. Underhealing is effectively known as "wiping".
How 'bout pointing out the fact that this may have (and was the plan) all along.
Things that "may be" cannot be pointed out as facts unless they "are." What IS a fact is that we have been told repeatedly that declaring deadlines and timetables would never, ever be productive and would only embolden the terrorists.
On the plus side, Bush also said that if we announce a deadline for withdrawal then the "terrorists" will just wait until that deadline to start acting up again. So I expect no more combat deaths till 2012! Awesome.
How 'bout pointing out the fact that this may have (and was the plan) all along. To create a viable and self-sustaining (although lazy and corrupt as hell) government in Iraq.
And this means Iraq is beginning to stand on its own, I view it as good.
Now if we could just get the lazy bastards to start paying the bills for their own country, it would all be good!
The far more likely explanation and the one most outed by the currently available evidence is that Maliki and his coalition of Shiites recognizes that they have the military supremacy they need to make the post-American involvement civil war a short and decisive one. The Sunni "Awakening" groups will likely be routed quickly, Al Qaeda in Iraq is destroyed, and with a timeline for an American pullout, they have a go date for a final Sunni solution. Ironically, it is largely our arming them and our destroying Al Qaeda in Iraq that has guaranteed that this will be the outcome.
This is tremendously far from the neocon vision of a democratic, prosperous, and friendly Arab nation. Instead, what we've created is a sectarian, largely radicalized, a weak republic that is ripe for the takeover by another Shiite strongman.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
The far more likely explanation and the one most outed by the currently available evidence is that Maliki and his coalition of Shiites recognizes that they have the military supremacy they need to make the post-American involvement civil war a short and decisive one. The Sunni "Awakening" groups will likely be routed quickly, Al Qaeda in Iraq is destroyed, and with a timeline for an American pullout, they have a go date for a final Sunni solution. Ironically, it is largely our arming them and our destroying Al Qaeda in Iraq that has guaranteed that this will be the outcome.
This is tremendously far from the neocon vision of a democratic, prosperous, and friendly Arab nation. Instead, what we've created is a sectarian, largely radicalized, a weak republic that is ripe for the takeover by another Shiite strongman.
I'm going to read that a few times in hopes on the third pass, I can find something to disagree with...
Ok...just the second part...nah...that's about right too. Damn...well said and can't disagree on the general principals of how this situation became messed up by poor planning and expectations at the State Dept and above. Sad but true.
Quote:
What IS a fact is that we have been told repeatedly that declaring deadlines and timetables would never, ever be productive and would only embolden the terrorists.
- and setting a timetable does not diminish this in lieu of events. The fact is that over the past 12 months, the situation has DRAMATICALLY stabilized. Still a LONG way to go, but that lends itself to a general timetable, where the caveat still remains 'unless we need the US forces to help us in area x...'.
Unless you're running out of mana overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game. Underhealing is effectively known as "wiping".
The fact is that over the past 12 months, the situation has DRAMATICALLY stabilized.
It's stabilized so much that the government is beginning to move against the Sunni Awakening Councils. Well, them and the remaining AQIA suicide bombers...
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
The fact is that over the past 12 months, the situation has DRAMATICALLY stabilized.
It's stabilized so much that the government is beginning to move against the Sunni Awakening Councils. Well, them and the remaining AQIA suicide bombers...
I guess they've got to start spinning up now so the neocons can give themselves partial credit for this one. Now that we're withdrawing they can point to all the "progress" and say that if the hippies had only sucked it up and believed in America we would've won. Just like Vietnam.
The neocons are certainly setting up the framework for the dolchstosslegende. McCain's insistance on "leaving only after we've won" pretty much ignores facts on the ground, in particular having to do with the inevitability of the upcoming Iraqi civil war (one we had an active role in staging). For as much as he drones on and on about the "surge working", he doesn't seem to understand that we aren't one iota closer to the stated political goal of creating a democratic, stable, strong, representative, and friendly Arabic state. The only thing the "surge" has "worked" for has been pushing off the loss date to the next adminstration.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
"There can be no treaty or agreement except on the basis of Iraq's full sovereignty," al-Maliki told a gathering of tribal sheiks. He said such an agreement must be based on the principle that "no foreign soldier remains in Iraq after a specific deadline, not an open time frame."
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
I guess they've got to start spinning up now so the neocons can give themselves partial credit for this one. Now that we're withdrawing they can point to all the "progress" and say that if the hippies had only sucked it up and believed in America we would've won. Just like Vietnam.
Ah, the Awakening Councils are our mercs, and both the govt and the remaining outside fighters are targeting them. That's definitely not the legacy we want (although I happen to believe a Shiite Iraq is inevitable.)
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
although I happen to believe a Shiite Iraq is inevitable
Even though the vast majority of the world is Sunni? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.
The vast majority of the Arab world is Sunni, but a clear majority of the Iraqi population is Shiite (well over 65%). The Shiites also appear to be better politically organized. This is partially due to the fact that our invasion pretty well destroyed the Sunni political aparati (ie: the Ba'ath Party) and left a vacuum that was quickly consumed by well-organized Shiite political entities in exile (ie: SCIRI and the Mahdi Army).
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
That's why, Reaper. Unless we prop up the Sunni minority that Saddam had championed, the Shiites will consolidate their hold on the country. I don't see a truly mixed country coming in Iraq for a few years at least. The Shiites could prevent that from happening, if they wished.
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
Two things:
1. I guess this means we "won" the war?
2. This is what it feels like when we're greeted at liberators then kindly told to GTFO!
Fortunately the GOP and their friends in the media excel at rewriting history. By this time tomorrow, it will be evidence of liberal bias to even mention the fact that the administration and McCain have lacerated Obama for raising the notion of timetables.
No, no. It's not a timeline, it's an "aspirational goal.” That's makes a completely different and doubleplusgood thing. Anyone can see that.
"It makes no sense to tell the enemy when you plan to start withdrawing. All the terrorists would have to do is mark their calendars and gather their strength -- and begin plotting how to overthrow the government and take control of the country of Iraq. I believe setting a deadline for withdrawal would demoralize the Iraqi people, would encourage killers across the broader Middle East, and send a signal that America will not keep its commitments. Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure -- and that would be irresponsible."
Bush, May 2008.
So he did something right? It's been a while since that's happened no? Either way credit given where credit is due.
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His hand was somewhat forced. With the expiration of the UN Mandate, he sort of had to take what the Iraqi government gave him or accept the criticism that Iraq was not sovereign and that our continued presence was the very definition of an illegal occupation.
Do you give credit to the crook for getting caught?
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
That's a good point. Hhm.
XBox Live|Tshirts|My Music|GameFly|xfire
Ohh well on to Georgia! It has been fun guys, I will miss all the camel spider vs.. videos.
Xfire: Pharacon
Tempest says: "A team hat doe snot communicate and talk to each other about what the next move will be is going to lose."
Mex is my hero = "f*ck it, I'll do it. WE'LL DO IT LIVE."
As the kids say, "pics or it didn't happen." I'll believe it when I see it in 2011. That's a long time for us to change our minds.
And not to be TOO cynical, but I wonder if Bush might have agreed to it because the timing might make the next president look bad if things don't go smoothly.
I read an article the other day that was fairly stupid and asinine, but did bring up one decent point: when we pull out of Iraq, those troops won't be going home. They'll be redeployed to Afghanistan (or by 2011, maybe Iran).
EDIT: Sorry, 2011, not 2012.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
I'm more worried about the fact that he's setting a timetable that occurs when he isn't in office, or isn't suppose to be...
I don't think it's realistic to expect withdrawal before he leaves office, even from a purely logistical point of view. Unless we're talking boarding evac helicopters from rooftops Vietnam-style.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
Not what I was going for, I meant he'll still be president then.
How 'bout pointing out the fact that this may have (and was the plan) all along. To create a viable and self-sustaining (although lazy and corrupt as hell) government in Iraq.
And this means Iraq is beginning to stand on its own, I view it as good.
Now if we could just get the lazy bastards to start paying the bills for their own country, it would all be good!
Unless you're running out of mana overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game. Underhealing is effectively known as "wiping".
so sayeth the Bear...
Things that "may be" cannot be pointed out as facts unless they "are." What IS a fact is that we have been told repeatedly that declaring deadlines and timetables would never, ever be productive and would only embolden the terrorists.
On the plus side, Bush also said that if we announce a deadline for withdrawal then the "terrorists" will just wait until that deadline to start acting up again. So I expect no more combat deaths till 2012! Awesome.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
The far more likely explanation and the one most outed by the currently available evidence is that Maliki and his coalition of Shiites recognizes that they have the military supremacy they need to make the post-American involvement civil war a short and decisive one. The Sunni "Awakening" groups will likely be routed quickly, Al Qaeda in Iraq is destroyed, and with a timeline for an American pullout, they have a go date for a final Sunni solution. Ironically, it is largely our arming them and our destroying Al Qaeda in Iraq that has guaranteed that this will be the outcome.
This is tremendously far from the neocon vision of a democratic, prosperous, and friendly Arab nation. Instead, what we've created is a sectarian, largely radicalized, a weak republic that is ripe for the takeover by another Shiite strongman.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Hmmm...Paleocon...
I'm going to read that a few times in hopes on the third pass, I can find something to disagree with...
Ok...just the second part...nah...that's about right too. Damn...well said and can't disagree on the general principals of how this situation became messed up by poor planning and expectations at the State Dept and above. Sad but true.
Unless you're running out of mana overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game. Underhealing is effectively known as "wiping".
so sayeth the Bear...
It's stabilized so much that the government is beginning to move against the Sunni Awakening Councils. Well, them and the remaining AQIA suicide bombers...
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
That would also be a true statement.
Unless you're running out of mana overhealing is the most worthless stat in the game. Underhealing is effectively known as "wiping".
so sayeth the Bear...
I wonder how long before we are supporting the AQI "freedom fighters" against a corrupt regime in Baghdad. Time for regime change again.
Remember: this conversation is just between you and me ... and the NSA.
MaverickDago wrote:
I guess they've got to start spinning up now so the neocons can give themselves partial credit for this one. Now that we're withdrawing they can point to all the "progress" and say that if the hippies had only sucked it up and believed in America we would've won. Just like Vietnam.
NOTE: This is not a doodle bug.
Spore
The neocons are certainly setting up the framework for the dolchstosslegende. McCain's insistance on "leaving only after we've won" pretty much ignores facts on the ground, in particular having to do with the inevitability of the upcoming Iraqi civil war (one we had an active role in staging). For as much as he drones on and on about the "surge working", he doesn't seem to understand that we aren't one iota closer to the stated political goal of creating a democratic, stable, strong, representative, and friendly Arabic state. The only thing the "surge" has "worked" for has been pushing off the loss date to the next adminstration.
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Looks like Maliki thinks Bush didn't go far enough.
link
"There can be no treaty or agreement except on the basis of Iraq's full sovereignty," al-Maliki told a gathering of tribal sheiks. He said such an agreement must be based on the principle that "no foreign soldier remains in Iraq after a specific deadline, not an open time frame."
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
Ah, the Awakening Councils are our mercs, and both the govt and the remaining outside fighters are targeting them. That's definitely not the legacy we want (although I happen to believe a Shiite Iraq is inevitable.)
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
I just hope to gods that we don't bring the Sunni Awakening folks into the US like we did the Hmong.
Isn't that the plot of that movie The Siege?
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
I wouldn't call them mercs. More like danes who get some geld.
Even though the vast majority of the world is Sunni? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop
I heard/read/saw that they're projecting a $15,000,000,000 (that's billion) budget surplus this year. Must be nice!
The vast majority of the Arab world is Sunni, but a clear majority of the Iraqi population is Shiite (well over 65%). The Shiites also appear to be better politically organized. This is partially due to the fact that our invasion pretty well destroyed the Sunni political aparati (ie: the Ba'ath Party) and left a vacuum that was quickly consumed by well-organized Shiite political entities in exile (ie: SCIRI and the Mahdi Army).
This is the internet! In our natural environment, atheists run in packs and have dictionaries! --- JoeBeDurndurn
That's why, Reaper. Unless we prop up the Sunni minority that Saddam had championed, the Shiites will consolidate their hold on the country. I don't see a truly mixed country coming in Iraq for a few years at least. The Shiites could prevent that from happening, if they wished.
"Sometimes I go around saying, 'Kommisar Paulson has seized the commanding heights of the economy!'" - Paul Krugman, asked if recent changes to banking are socialistic.
This part I understand.
In Iraq or in general?
So no other Sunni nation is interested in preventing an ethnic cleansing? Does this have to do with Iran's Shiite population?
Edit: I'm feeling kind of thick today... so dumb it down as much as you need.
"If Blizzard announces a subscription fee for Diablo III we will have to build a second Internet to make room for all the complaining." - muttonchop