Windows Mojave

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Ranger Rick's picture
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So the start of Microsoft's ad campaign to attempt to undo some of the damage by Vista's image is on the net now.

While there are some obvious holes in their methods to avoid problems (controlled environment with a focus group, presumably well-known fully-compatible hardware, people don't get to try their own stuff at home) it's an interesting way to go about it. The whole point is, "Take a second look at Vista, it's better."

Being a Mac user, I enjoy bashing Windows as much as the next guy, but since the sea-change involved in moving to the NT codebase with Windows 2000, MS has actually done a pretty good job of attempting to address the stability issues that plagued them; I don't think Windows is really as bad as the 'net would make you think.

However, I notice that they don't mention Apple at all; I'm sure they're afraid to go up against the mindshare of OSX vs. Windows that Apple has clearly been winning for a while now.

Anyways, just thought it was interesting...

(edit) whups, should have been in Tech =)

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This is tech board material.

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Quote:
MS has actually done a pretty good job of attempting to address the stability issues that plagued them; I don't think Windows is really as bad as the 'net would make you think.

I know it's not. I've got an XP Home machine that never bluescreened. Never.
I've got an XP Pro laptop that never bluescreened, aside from when the video card started getting old/hot/both.
I've got a Vista laptop that has yet to crash on me.

I haven't had stability problems since Win95, really. Win98 was a great gaming OS. XP was rock solid. Vista is good so far. Is it as elegant as a Mac? Nah, but I don't care. I don't spend a lot of time actually looking at windows and menus and crap. I look at the *contents* of windows or I'm gaming fullscreen.

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Makes you wonder why the whole "BSOD" thing is STILL the #1 talking point for Windows haters even in 2008. I agree... aside from hardware issues, I've NEVER had a BSOD on XP.

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I've never had a problem in XP that wasn't traced back to a hardware issue. We've had lots of problems (compatibility issues in particular, security messes also) with Vista on the pc we got for Alaysha. I refuse to upgrade my pc to Vista as a result; XP is just fine and all I'm missing out on that I care about is DirectX 10. Given how little that's been utilized in games yet, that's not a big issue. I'm hoping Windows 7 becomes the new XP. I wanted to upgrade to Vista until we actually tried using it much.

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SommerMatt wrote:
Makes you wonder why the whole "BSOD" thing is STILL the #1 talking point for Windows haters even in 2008. I agree... aside from hardware issues, I've NEVER had a BSOD on XP.

I've had a few, but they've almost always come down to problems crappy third party drivers. XP has been nothing but good to me and I've been favorably impressed with Vista on my wife's laptop as well.

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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Yep, every problem I've had related to a BSOD either on my own PC or a client's PC was a result of hardware failure or bad drivers. XP is very stable and if you buy a new PC with Vista on it, it has come a long way since launch. I still don't run Vista full time and probably won't until I upgrade my PC again but the new LG laptop I bought my Mom had it and it runs very nicely. Vista still has a lot of issues I think are due to poor design choices but it's much improved and worth it on a new PC.

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I've had plenty of BSODs while gaming on XP, but I don't remember any other times.

I tried Win2K8 server briefly as a workstation, since apparently that comes sans DRM. The sound is still a hopeless mess, which was enough to drive me back to XP for gaming.

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Never had a BSOD on XP. Ever.

I actually like Vista.

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I love Vista. I've been dual-booting with 64 bit Home Premium since it came out, and switched to it completely after SP1 removed the last problems I had. I find it efficient, good-looking and very stable. In the past year and a half, I've never had a freeze or crash that caused a reboot or forced me to manually do that.

And yeah, it's marketing schlock, but I feel this Mojave experiment was something Microsoft needed to do, PR rise. Is Vista flawless? Hell no. But there seems to be a lot of people who haven't even tried Vista claiming it's a horrible operating system, sometimes with the most ridiculous fake things I've ever imagined. This happens all the time (I remember some similar beliefs when XP came out), but this time the vitriol seems overwhelming. It's further compounded by the fact that the majority of complaints are either things outside of Microsoft's power (like crappy driver support, but that's better now), or complete misunderstanding of how it works differently (Like how many times I've seen people interpret Vista's far superior memory management as being a "resource hog".)

I would think the first rule of PR is to ignore forum people, because they vacillate between crazy and liar. - Elysium

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I think a big factor in the perception of Vista are the Apple ads, the PC guy is the better actor and does a great job playing the part. I don't think the Mojave stuff will factor into Microsofts marketing for Vista but yeah, it goes to show that some people don't play with the OS for themselves (and at the prices their selling it for I can understand the need for a surrogate). Take that 'paper' on DRM that came out last year, half the stuff the guy said you couldn't do you could but because he never used Vista and was just cutting/pasting junk from other sites/papers (and not necessarily in context) he came out causing damage where it wasn't warranted.

That's not to say Vista hasn't caused it's own grief, the whole NBC broadcast flag issue a few months back and the problematic drivers from 3rd parties who didn't think it would ship on time (that time) didn't help it's case.

Every PC in my house that can run Vista OK has it (2+ gig of ram and decent proc) and I've had nary an issue on any of them. I did have to get an updated version of WSFTP Pro 2007 (it was a free download) because the one I had stored from when I purchased it gave the "There are known issues with this program" in Vista, Diablo2 was the other such application but the latest patch got rid of the error after installing it.

One of the biggest factors going forward though is going to be 3rd party hardware support, especially as 64bit comes of age (it's already happening really), peoples scanners/printers/iGrill that they bought a few years ago may not work with newer operating systems if the vendor doesn't choose to release an updated driver for the new OS.

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Podunk wrote:
I've had a few, but they've almost always come down to problems crappy third party drivers. XP has been nothing but good to me and I've been favorably impressed with Vista on my wife's laptop as well.

Most blue screens are a result of driver issues. That doesn't let XP off the hook, however.

In XP, video drivers run entirely in kernel space. If they fall down and go boom, the rest of the OS follows suit.

Vista moves a chunk of the video driver out of kernel space and into user space. According to MSDN, most of the video driver sits in user mode, with only a small component sitting in kernel space. (Vista also takes the entire sound system out of kernel space, as it was in XP, and drops it into user space). With Vista x64, MS is also starting to require kernel-mode drivers to be Microsoft certified before they can be used.

Putting drivers in user-space isn't a magic bullet. But letting the wild world of 3rd party drivers all run amok in kernel mode was certainly no good.

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Eezy_Bordone's picture
Location: Western Washington

But the move from kernel mode to user mode is a Good Thing™ the last batches of ATI and NVIDIA drivers didn't require a reboot for me.

Do the 64bit drivers require MS Certification or a digital signature?

Do you ever walk alone like a drifter in the dark?

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You're right - signing, not certifying, is the correct word. Kernel Mode Code Signing is separate from WHQL, it simply verifies the source of the driver.

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*Legion* wrote:
Podunk wrote:
I've had a few, but they've almost always come down to problems crappy third party drivers. XP has been nothing but good to me and I've been favorably impressed with Vista on my wife's laptop as well.

Most blue screens are a result of driver issues. That doesn't let XP off the hook, however.

In XP, video drivers run entirely in kernel space. If they fall down and go boom, the rest of the OS follows suit.

Vista moves a chunk of the video driver out of kernel space and into user space. According to MSDN, most of the video driver sits in user mode, with only a small component sitting in kernel space. (Vista also takes the entire sound system out of kernel space, as it was in XP, and drops it into user space). With Vista x64, MS is also starting to require kernel-mode drivers to be Microsoft certified before they can be used.

Putting drivers in user-space isn't a magic bullet. But letting the wild world of 3rd party drivers all run amok in kernel mode was certainly no good.

I've been telling my friends this for years, and they kept swearing that there was no improvement in vista (even post sp1) over xp. A couple of BSOD later due to using beta video drivers and nearly all of them are running vista now.

I built a rig recently and put Vista on it and haven't had any issues since the install.

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I want to make babies with Diablo III.

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Vista isn't as bad as it's made to seem if you have a sufficiently strong system for it, but I can't run it for more then 10 hrs without a crash-reboot. It makes it impossibly frustrating to work with, and as a result I've moved to an alternate OS on my laptop.

I've been running XP Pro on my desktop for years, and love it to death.

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DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
Vista isn't as bad as it's made to seem if you have a sufficiently strong system for it, but I can't run it for more then 10 hrs without a crash-reboot. It makes it impossibly frustrating to work with, and as a result I've moved to an alternate OS on my laptop.

I've been running XP Pro on my desktop for years, and love it to death.

I'd check out your hardware sir, if it's crashing consistently sounds like maybe a heat issue?

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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

I doubt it's heat if it's only crashing every 10 hours.

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Mysteri0 wrote:
DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
Vista isn't as bad as it's made to seem if you have a sufficiently strong system for it, but I can't run it for more then 10 hrs without a crash-reboot. It makes it impossibly frustrating to work with, and as a result I've moved to an alternate OS on my laptop.

I've been running XP Pro on my desktop for years, and love it to death.

I'd check out your hardware sir, if it's crashing consistently sounds like maybe a heat issue?

The machine is a Dell laptop that came with it pre-installed. It seems to only crash when suspended or asleep, but never makes it overnight til morning without a crash. The 10hrs is an estimate, based on that.

I've fooled around it with some, without luck thus far. Anyhow, hate to tangent If anyone has any thoughts, we can start up a Tech thread.

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Location: Bad Sector 549

DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
Mysteri0 wrote:
DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
Vista isn't as bad as it's made to seem if you have a sufficiently strong system for it, but I can't run it for more then 10 hrs without a crash-reboot. It makes it impossibly frustrating to work with, and as a result I've moved to an alternate OS on my laptop.

I've been running XP Pro on my desktop for years, and love it to death.

I'd check out your hardware sir, if it's crashing consistently sounds like maybe a heat issue?

The machine is a Dell laptop that came with it pre-installed. It seems to only crash when suspended or asleep, but never makes it overnight til morning without a crash. The 10hrs is an estimate, based on that.

I've fooled around it with some, without luck thus far. Anyhow, hate to tangent If anyone has any thoughts, we can start up a Tech thread.

I've sworn off buying Dells as pretty much all of them have had some quirk to it. For instance this computer I use at work won't display the desktop background except at the log in screen and when logging off. I've checked everything I can think of and even reset and set the registry keys for the background manually and still a no go. Point is...avoid Dells if you can help it.

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Elysium wrote:


I want to make babies with Diablo III.

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DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
The machine is a Dell laptop that came with it pre-installed. It seems to only crash when suspended or asleep, but never makes it overnight til morning without a crash. The 10hrs is an estimate, based on that.

I've fooled around it with some, without luck thus far. Anyhow, hate to tangent If anyone has any thoughts, we can start up a Tech thread.

Have you put the service tag into support.dell.com? They may have updated drivers, if not then I'd go to the manufacturer's site.

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CrashedHardrive wrote:
I've sworn off buying Dells as pretty much all of them have had some quirk to it. For instance this computer I use at work won't display the desktop background except at the log in screen and when logging off. I've checked everything I can think of and even reset and set the registry keys for the background manually and still a no go. Point is...avoid Dells if you can help it.

That's definitely a Windows problem and nothing to do with Dell. I've seen that before and had similar difficulties correcting it on other systems. As far as brand name laptops go, Dells are some of the better ones in terms of reliability in my opinion. My Inspiron 9300 that I bought in 2005 just went out of warranty. It's got a billion hours on it, been dropped once and spent almost every day being hauled around with me between service calls and I've never had a single problem with it. Granted, it's was a fairly high end model at the time but compared to a lot of the modern HP/Compaq and Acer garbage I've worked with, it's a dream. It's sad when this 3 year old machine runs Windows XP faster than a brand new HP business class machine. All personal opinion of course.

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Eezy_Bordone wrote:
DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
The machine is a Dell laptop that came with it pre-installed. It seems to only crash when suspended or asleep, but never makes it overnight til morning without a crash. The 10hrs is an estimate, based on that.

I've fooled around it with some, without luck thus far. Anyhow, hate to tangent If anyone has any thoughts, we can start up a Tech thread.

Have you put the service tag into support.dell.com? They may have updated drivers, if not then I'd go to the manufacturer's site.

I've been updating through Windows, but not checked back with dell. I'm worried something they have will break my machine When I boot back over to Vista I'll give it a shot, though - thanks for the suggestions! If that doesn't work, I'll start up a tech thread.

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Location: Bad Sector 549

Parallax Abstraction wrote:
CrashedHardrive wrote:
I've sworn off buying Dells as pretty much all of them have had some quirk to it. For instance this computer I use at work won't display the desktop background except at the log in screen and when logging off. I've checked everything I can think of and even reset and set the registry keys for the background manually and still a no go. Point is...avoid Dells if you can help it.

That's definitely a Windows problem and nothing to do with Dell. I've seen that before and had similar difficulties correcting it on other systems. As far as brand name laptops go, Dells are some of the better ones in terms of reliability in my opinion. My Inspiron 9300 that I bought in 2005 just went out of warranty. It's got a billion hours on it, been dropped once and spent almost every day being hauled around with me between service calls and I've never had a single problem with it. Granted, it's was a fairly high end model at the time but compared to a lot of the modern HP/Compaq and Acer garbage I've worked with, it's a dream. It's sad when this 3 year old machine runs Windows XP faster than a brand new HP business class machine. All personal opinion of course.

Yeah, I just blame dell because they were the ones that installed the OS. Plus in my time of tech support working on dell desktops was like pulling teeth so I may be a little biased towards the company. Also it could be luck of the draw, and obviously in tech support all I see is people who got the short end of the stick. I'm glad your laptop was apparently near impervious to damage .

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Elysium wrote:


I want to make babies with Diablo III.

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For the record, Vista came with my laptop and even after a fresh install and vLite and all the windows install tricks I could think of, Vista was still a bloated piece of crap.

Not a fan of Vista. I think I might actually sell the laptop on eBay because it can't run XP.

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SommerMatt wrote:
Makes you wonder why the whole "BSOD" thing is STILL the #1 talking point for Windows haters even in 2008.

Maybe China just wasn't running SP3.

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I had aseries of blue screens last spring when I built my PC and used vista 64 ultimate. All of it had to do with drivers being promised by manufacturers but not delivered. If day 1 driver support is better, especially on 64 bit systems, 7 is looking to be a good mix of xp's functionality along with the added features of vista while hopefully reducing footprint.
3 months later after yelling at tech support for not understanding there jobs, I got pre-release drivers from Belkin and Asus(onboard sound) that worked perfectly before the official release a week later.

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Ignore boogle, his PCs have hookers inside of them.

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Eezy_Bordone's picture
Location: Western Washington

Driver support will be great for Win7, it's built on WinVistaSP1.

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the pot and the kettle
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Well, then sounds like a good deal.

*Legion* wrote:

Ignore boogle, his PCs have hookers inside of them.

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